BE CAREFUL with old fonts, even if they are good! Group/Independently Regulated

[rul3s]

Following some questions on overclock.net I came across a topic that curiously I have found very little information on in Spanish-speaking forums, so I'm going to contribute my bit.

In the past, power supplies were built following a design called "Group regulated design", whether they were low, medium or high range.
This design allowed two or more rails to share the same voltage regulator, and then they compensated between them, and it was not a problem for the computers of that era.
With the introduction of Haswell and the new C6 and C7 states, a problem originated with this design, and it is that one line could be completely unloaded, while another had a load, and then the auto-regulators thinking it was a drop, trying to compensate it, could make them go out of the values marked by ATX (+5%), making the 12v line exceed 12.5v.
This is why old power supplies that follow this design could damage a modern computer and you have to be careful with this.

All this comes from the fact that I have a Corsair HX650M, which is already 8 years old, but it is of the old "Group regulated" design and in the long run could damage a modern computer (Haswell or higher).

Although not everything is lost, since if we deactivate the C6 and C7 states we should "solve" this, although what we really do is restrict the new energy-saving modes introduced in Haswell that completely suppress the load on any of the lines.

New power supplies, compatible with Haswell and above, follow an "independently regulated" design that makes each line (3.3v, 5v and 12v) be regulated individually, thus eliminating this problem that occurred when the load was completely canceled on one of the lines (mainly the 12v one).
Thus, the independently regulated ones are the ones that come marked as "Haswell Ready".

Curiously I have had a 4790K powered by a group regulated PSU (Corsair HX650M from 2011), and curiously the only graphics card that has blown up during this time has been a 980ti.... To know if this could have been it or not, but it is a fact.

So if you find yourself in this situation, at least go into the bios and disable the C6 and C7 modes to avoid possible hardware failures.

I still need to investigate how this affects the Ryzen platform, as soon as I know more I will inform you.

Sources: https://superuser.com/questions/1051024/under-what-conditions-will-a-group-regulated-psu-damage-a-modern-computer
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/answers/id-2521950/haswell-ready-psus.html

[JuezDred]

Hello. As some of you may know... I work in electronics among other things.
Most power supplies that claim to have 2 or more rails... are false. They are soldered on the main board. Among other things for marketing. And production costs. The lines are not independent. They even share the same filter capacitors.
And that's because making a decent power supply with several real rails would be twice the size... the traces would have to be large for each rail. In addition to twice as many mosfets and twice as many filter capacitors.... it's not economically viable. That's why since 2013 power supplies have come with a single rail.

[garfield]

Now I understand the hype that some sources had at the beginning of the haswell that said "Haswell Ready". I thought it was more of a publicity stunt than anything else. Well, look, nothing has ever died on me even with the sources prior to the haswell on those machines. It's also true that the sources have died before the PCs, and I think the oldest source I have now is from 2016-2017. The last one I bought is this: https://es.thermaltake.com/products-model.aspx?id=C_00003117 38€ in an offer on amazon

[Yorus]

My source is a few years old, it has never given me any problems and all the computers I have had with it have been very stable... except for the Haswell, i5-4590S.

[krampak]

How do I find out what type my source is? Mine is a few years old and I have it mounted with a Coffee Lake.

[JuezDred]

hello again. if you want to see what type your power supply is and if it really has 2 lines of 12v or as usually happens 1, use a tester. disconnect the cables from the power supply and measure between a connector that goes to the motherboard and the graphics card. specifically the yellow one. if they are separated. it shouldn't give continuity. if on the other hand, it gives you continuity it means they are the same rail

[JuezDred]

Yorus, the power supplies usually don't give problems, which gradually degrade until they start to damage the components of the equipment. And that's okay with the oscilloscope or a test program that measures the ripples of the tracks.

[JuezDred]

[rul3s]

@juezdred said in BE CAREFUL with old power supplies, even if they are good! Group/Independently Regulated:

Hello. As some of you may already know... I work in electronics among other things.
Most of the power supplies that claim to have 2 or more rails... are false. They are soldered on the main board. Among other things for marketing. And production costs. The lines are not independent. They even share the same filter capacitors.
And that's because making a decent power supply with real multiple rails would be twice the size... the traces should be large for each rail. In addition to double the MOSFETs and double the filter capacitors.... it's not economically viable. That's why since 2013 power supplies have come with a single rail.

@juezdred said in BE CAREFUL with old power supplies, even if they are good! Group/Independently Regulated:

hello again. if you want to see what type your power supply is and if it really has 2 lines of 12v or as usually happens 1, use a tester. Disconnect the cables from the power supply and measure between a connector of those that go to the motherboard and the graphics card. Specifically the yellow one. If they are separated. it shouldn't give continuity. If on the contrary, it gives you continuity it means they are the same rail

@juezdred said in BE CAREFUL with old power supplies, even if they are good! Group/Independently Regulated:

Yorus, power supplies usually don't give problems, little by little they degrade until they begin to damage the components of the equipment. and that with the oscilloscope or a test program that measures the ripples of the rails is enough.

@juezdred said in BE CAREFUL with old power supplies, even if they are good! Group/Independently Regulated:

@juezdred said in BE CAREFUL with old power supplies, even if they are good! Group/Independently Regulated:

hello again. if you want to see what type your power supply is and if it really has 2 lines of 12v or as usually happens 1, use a tester. Disconnect the cables from the power supply and measure between a connector of those that go to the motherboard and the graphics card. Specifically the yellow one. If they are separated. it shouldn't give continuity. if on the contrary, it gives you continuity it means they are the same rail

I think you are mixing apples and oranges.
In this post it is discussed that a COMPLETELY NEW but old generation power supply could cause problems with Haswell or superior hardware, due to a design issue of the 3.3, 5 and 12v lines, regardless of the number of 12v lines it has, since previously, even though they were good, they shared regulators and other components.
On the other hand, starting with Haswell there is a specification that makes them "Haswell Ready" which states that although they do not have completely separate lines, the regulators must be and that the fact that there is no load in one line should not cause a voltage increase in another.

On the other hand, what you comment on is the degradation of power supplies and their capacitors over time, I won't get into that, although if Corsair gives a 10-year warranty on their power supplies I think it's because they are very sure about it.

@krampak said in BE CAREFUL with old power supplies, even if they are good! Group/Independently Regulated:

How do I know what type my power supply is? Mine is a few years old and I have it mounted with a Coffee Lake.

@krampak about how to know, you should look on your manufacturer's website if it is "Haswell Ready" in case it is from before 2013 approximately.
In my case, the Corsair HX650, there are different models depending on the years. The first one, the one that is not 80plus or anything like that, is announced as "TBD Likely compatible — currently validating" and the ones that are 80plus are listed as "YES 100% Compatible with Haswell CPUs".

https://www.corsair.com/es/es/blog/haswell-compatibility-with-corsair-power-supplies

For other manufacturers and others, you will have to investigate a bit about the issue.

[krampak]

@rul3s said in BE CAREFUL with old fonts, even if they are good! Group/Independently Regulated:

it's probably from before 2013 approximately.

Well, it doesn't say anything like that... I also don't remember exactly what year I bought it

Although to be honest, I'm not even sure if I have the C7 activated... I'd have to check xD

[rul3s]

@krampak said in BE CAREFUL with old fonts, even if they are good! Group/Independently Regulated:

@rul3s said in BE CAREFUL with old fonts, even if they are good! Group/Independently Regulated:

it was before 2013 approximately.

Well, it doesn't say anything like that... I also don't remember exactly in what year I bought it

Although, to be honest, I don't even know if I have C7 activated... I would have to check it xD

What exact model is yours?
Anyway, if you are in doubt, disable C6 and C7 just in case and that's it!

[krampak]

@rul3s A LEPA G1600. Now I see that in the Max Platinum series, the Haswell Ready label does appear, so possibly mine is not.